Censored (in “Christians and LGBT Bullying”): reply to poster who argued that being ignorant was better than acquiring knowledge and that he is helpless in his state of comfortable and chosen ignorance

Monday, December 17, 2012, 2:23 PM
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Anna wrote: ” Christians must be willing to talk about and fight the bullying, harassment, and (yes) bigotry that gays and lesbians face. Roughly 80 percent of LGBT teens have experienced verbal harassment, and 40 percent have experienced physical harassment. ”

Nothing different than youth in general.

And what needs to be noted is that a significant number of youth who bully or harass or sexually harass others think what? That homosexuality is normal. And most teens who think homosexuality is normal, think porn is normal. And many of those think hook-ups are normal. And they spread an enormous number of STDs (especially if we include college students).

People with a homosexualist agenda should be willing to face how destructive their views on relationships and sexuality are, but they aren’t willing.

And many of these LGBT kids are exactly the kind that will advocate for the destruction of wonderful companies like Chick Fil A, who will discriminate against anyone who question their views as soon as they get in such a position, who minimize and trivialize all the violence that LGBT individuals perpetrate in society, etc.

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Heather wrote:
December 17th, 2012 | 5:24 pm

Andrew O’Brien wrote: “But on the other hand, gay people have largely trained themselves to believe that their whole lives revolve around their orientation, and because of this, every act of injustice against them MUST be because they are gay, even if it isn’t true.”

Nickol wrote: “On what basis do you make this sweeping, negative generalization about gay people? I have no hesitation classifying this as . . . shall we say a product of “anti-gay animus.” ”

Because the homosexualist agenda movement is largely based on a discourse of exaggerated and false claims to victimization, of equating LGBT people to blacks under oppressive racism, of claiming anyone who disagrees with their views is a bigot, of spreading wild lies about “epidemics of suicides,” etc.

On this blog, we had so many recent examples.

People with a homosexualist agenda will basically only omit, dismiss, minimize and trivialize information regarding how destructive, violent, or harmful LGBT individuals are, while posting comment after comment on how much violence (true or wildly exaggerated) LGBT people suffer.

And, as an aside tied to what Andrew wrote, based on news reports (but no formal study), the LGBT group is the minority group who most fakes “hate” crimes in society.

There are already very few other individuals who are so perverse to fake their own suffering, to dupe society, as if we didn’t have enough real horrible events as it is. But every now and then, there is a report in the news of another LGBT person who completely faked some attack – to *pretend* to be a victim.

Christians need to be aware just how manipulative people with a homosexualist agenda are.

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Michael wrote:
December 19th, 2012 | 9:28 pm

I don’t know that we need any statistics to convince us of the omnipresence of the bullying of gays. Growing up, I can’t recall ever hearing anyone get mocked for being straight, but mockery of being gay existed even before I knew what one was, much less what one did. And despite attending a fine Catholic Church and school, I don’t remember ever hearing that gays shouldn’t be reviled. We would mock but could also understand gamblers, drunkards, and adulterers. Their crimes seemed like excess rather than a violation of nature.

For my mind to change about gays, I only had to meet one gay man who shared the same desires that I do. Once I started meeting gay men and women who were devoted Christians and who desired a spouse and family, the conviction that homosexuality was intrinsically disordered melted away.

In the meantime, the argument that sex is essentially or primarily procreative has always seemed so patently false. The desire behind sex has always been so obviously about achieving and expressing emotional intimacy. To reduce it to either procreation or pleasure is to misunderstand its role in tearing people away from their birth families and uniting them into a new family. That is the teaching of Genesis 2:24 after all, that sex pulls our loyalties away from mother and father, shifting them to our spouse.

And this issue of loyalty is what gave birth to the gay marriage movement. The sight of grieving partners at death beds and then estranged parents swooping in to make decisions crystallized the conviction that gay couples had indeed formed families distinct from their birth families. Once gay couples were seen fulfilling Genesis 2:24, gay marriage no longer seemed so unimaginable.

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Heather wrote:
December 20th, 2012 | 3:06 am

Michael wrote: “I don’t know that we need any statistics to convince us of the omnipresence of the bullying of gays.”

Oh, I think we do – and very much so. Because what I see when I look at many school settings out there today is quite different than what you describe.

In many settings, teens with a homosexuality problem are told they are normal, along with the porn, the hook-ups, the sex outside marriage (and committed relationships), the spreading of STDs with impunity, etc.

Normalizing homosexuality is done as part of a larger package of a sexuality ideology that seeks to warrant social approval to a variety of interconnected harmful attitudes and practices.

Furthermore, what we also need that we mostly don’t have in terms of statistics regarding sexuality behavior is how frequently do people with a homosexuality or bisexuality problem make unwanted or unwelcome advances to others, how much they sexual harass, exploit or abuse others, how perverse and perverted their sexualities are.

Take the recent Kevin Clash case (now with allegations from his fourth -and underage- male victim). Suppose that before the scandal, he came on this forum and told us he had been bullied as a “gay” teen. It would give the impression that he was just a nice, benign, harmless, poor little homosexual victim, persecuted by the socially conservatives meanies at his school. Isn’t this the image that liberals constantly insist on?

And it would give the impression that this is the only or major problem we have in society regarding homosexuals. But flash forward several years, and we find a perverted wealthy, privileged individual who trolls the Internet searching for young male meat to exploit (and allegedly abuse). All the while he has been told by liberals that “there is nothing disordered” about him or his homosexuality.

When liberals go on and on about bullying of homosexual teens, they never address just how many dysfunctional and harmful behaviors these very same teens are in the process of adopting as teens or later as adults.

And imagine if you were applying for a job under Clash and stated the truth about being socially conservative. You would never get the job.

This narrative about homosexuals as victims of bullying or anything else is much more misleading and complicated than what liberals will have you believe.

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Ray Ingles wrote:
December 20th, 2012 | 11:57 am

Heather –

how frequently do people with a homosexuality or bisexuality problem make unwanted or unwelcome advances to others

I’ll assume, by your name, that you’re female. How many “unwanted or unwelcome advances” have you received from straight males? Is that an exclusively homosexual phenomenon?

To my knowledge, I’ve been hit on by a man exactly once. He was circumspect about it, and backed off immediately when I made it clear that wasn’t the sort of thing I was interested in.

how much they sexual harass, exploit or abuse others, how perverse and perverted their sexualities are.

Again, are these exclusively homosexual problems?

There’s also the problem of correlation and causation. For example, I’d be willing to bet that the rate of mental pathology was pretty high among the black population from the 1700s through the 1800′s and well into the 1900′s. But was that because they were black, or because of slavery and segregation?

(Note – that doesn’t mean that gays are or have been discriminated against in the same manner or to the same degree as blacks have. It does establish the point, though, that raw rates of problems need context to establish causation, as opposed to correlation.)

And imagine if you were applying for a job under Clash and stated the truth about being socially conservative. You would never get the job.

Imagine if someone who said they were gay asked you for a job. Would they get it?

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Heather wrote:
December 20th, 2012 | 5:29 pm

Heather wrote: “how frequently do people with a homosexuality or bisexuality problem make unwanted or unwelcome advances to others”

 

Ray Ingles wrote: Is that an exclusively homosexual phenomenon?

It seems you are unable to understand what I am pointing out.

Let’s go back to a quote from the original post: “Christians must be willing to talk about and fight the bullying, harassment, and (yes) bigotry that gays and lesbians face. ”

Is the post talking about heterosexuals? Is it talking about children? Animals? No, it is talking exclusively about people with a homosexual problem.

And it is underlining the issue of bullying that only this group faces. I didn’t see you pose the question if only people with a homosexual problem experienced bullying in society? Why are you asking this question of exclusivity to me then?

If we want to have a more realistic picture of the problems we have in society, we need to collect and present data on how perverse and perverted, violent and dysfunctional people with a homosexuality problem are. These are all serious problems.

Looking exclusively at the bullying problem, and even worse, using an optic that is often exaggerated and not based on evidence, gives us a very false picture of society as it concerns people with a homosexuality problem.
LGBT people perpetrate a large number of crimes and they do a great deal of harm, as well as sometimes being the targets of bullying.

I don’t know why it’s not clear to you that this thread is not about heterosexuals, animals, children, etc. It is about homosexuals. Wanting to change the group focus is nothing but a red herring attempt.

Christians must be willing to talk about and fight the many destructive attitudes and behaviors LGBT individuals have, and they must hold them accountable for the harm they do to others and in society in general. Bullying is far from the only problem there is, and all the violence and harm LGBT individuals do in society is much, much worse than the bullying problem. So the priority should be to give attention to how destructive and harmful people with a homosexuality problem are.

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Heather wrote:
December 20th, 2012 | 5:52 pm

Ray Ingles wrote: “To my knowledge, I’ve been hit on by a man exactly once. He was circumspect about it, and backed off immediately when I made it clear that wasn’t the sort of thing I was interested in.”

Your point is? The world begins and ends with your experience? Not quite.

Are you suggesting that if you haven’t been kidnapped, there is not kidnapping? If you haven’t been raped, there is no rape in the world? Clearly you haven’t been murdered, so there is no murder either?

You describe a life experience of extreme privilege. In addition, you purposefully dismiss above every single news article, study, testimony, and other bit of information that attests to criminal, destructive, harmful, or harassing attitudes and behaviors by homosexuals.

In short, the aim of your discourse here is a refusal to acknowledge and confront all the violence and harm that LGBT people do in the world.

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Ray Ingles wrote:
December 21st, 2012 | 10:42 am

Heather –

The world begins and ends with your experience? Not quite.

In the absence of other data, that’s what I’ve got to go on. Speaking of which…

If we want to have a more realistic picture of the problems we have in society, we need to collect and present data on how perverse and perverted, violent and dysfunctional people with a homosexuality problem are. These are all serious problems.

I’ve seen you assert that. I’ve not seen you support that. I asked you to in my last comment in this thread (December 12th, 2012 | 12:48 pm), and you didn’t. Nor did you answer any of the other questions I posed.

So, yeah. I’m gonna stick with my experience until and unless you actually give me some reason to think differently.

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Heather wrote:
December 21st, 2012 | 2:45 pm

Heather wrote: The world begins and ends with your experience? Not quite.

Ray Ingles wrote: In the absence of other data, that’s what I’ve got to go on.

In other words, what you have to go on is basically no knowledge and no data, that is, you basically know nothing about 8 billion people regarding this subject. That’s a vast black hole of lack of information.

Although you could access a considerable amount of “other data” about other people that is readily available online and in the media by doing simple searches or just plain reading or listening, you curiously refuse to.

The amount of effort you put into shutting reality and knowledge out of your mind is quite intense.

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Heather wrote:
December 21st, 2012 | 4:32 pm

Ray wrote: “I’ve seen you assert that. I’ve not seen you support that. I asked you to in my last comment in this thread (December 12th, 2012 | 12:48 pm), and you didn’t. Nor did you answer any of the other questions I posed.”

That’s not true at all. I certainly did answer.

I wonder if FT will censor this reply as well.

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Raymond Ingles wrote:
December 21st, 2012 | 7:00 pm

Heather, when you won’t help me understand it and won’t support it, why should I accept your position?

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CENSORED: My reply to Raymond’s ridiculous question above:

 Raymond Ingles: “Heather, when you won’t help me understand it and won’t support it, why should I accept your position?”

It seems one thing is not clear to you: Your lack of capacity for evaluating a position is not equal to a lack of support of any such position.
What articles, books, testimonies have you read regarding this subject that you didn’t understand? Oh, none. What articles, books, testimonies have you read on this subject at all? None. No information must enter your mind.

Is all this denial and ignorance effective in maintaining your perception of your narrative  as the Truth? Ah, so very effective. No information must come between you and your narrative, lest it would disrupt it and expose it as false. If any such information exists, you just steer away from it as much as possible.

It’s true, I can’t help someone whose objective in life is deliberate, sheer ignorance about the world – that comfortable made-up nonsense, that bliss of three or four self-serving sound bites occupying their entire intellect.

For many people, their dark little caves are so much more comfortable than the light of knowledge. Ignorance in these cases, we could certainly say, is self-serving bliss.

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Since my comment above was censored, I wrote a minimalist version of it, but IT WAS ALSO CENSORED:

Heather wrote:
December 23rd, 2012 | 5:14 am

Raymond Ingles: “Heather, when you won’t help me understand it and won’t support it, why should I accept your position?”

It seems one thing is not clear to you: Your lack of capacity for evaluating a position is not equal to a lack of support of any such position.

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